freshy i realize others may not share the request lol and if it's not of interest to others freshy hopes they will say so (speaking of the subs present) could we have a lesson tonight please?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : A lesson ... not sure what you mean?
»†«phøéb뻆« : a lesson?
«heta»♥Atën : A topic?
zĩѵɑ listens with interest
»†«phøéb뻆« : do you mean a topic or a demonstration?
freshy : i don't know? maybe something of interest to the Doms to teach/demonstrate/raise awareness of and stuff?
•bliss• : how about a topic for discussion?
«heta»♥Atën likes topics.
•bliss• giggles
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : The floor is open
»†«phøéb뻆« : what is your favorite technique for discipline and why ... for subbies, what discipline do you hate the most. and why
•bliss• : the silent treatment duh
»†«phøéb뻆« : for me, its being ignored.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : My favorite technique is what I call "veiling"
Sciicure : the silent treatment is effective and usually only neds to be used once
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : it can have some other features added but basically it is a time out for a set period .... she would be kneeling most likely, her hair, if long enough would be drawn over her head and cover her eyes
zĩѵɑ : for me the worst kind of discipline is silence
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : or a pillow case put over her head
zĩѵɑ listens to SW Sir
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : the object is to let her reflect while also having her feel the natural consequence of not having My attention, she can still feel or hear Me but is not allowed to see or speak to Me …. it has always seemed to be effective …. There are other positions that can be used as well to accomplish the same thing un-popped popcorn kernels can be used for her to kneel on
»†«phøéb뻆« : ouch SW.. i’ve heard uncooked rice does the same thing
zĩѵɑ : that would indeed install a lesson to be learned
»†«phøéb뻆« : : imo, that is the most effective form of discipline especially for a subbie, as submissives tend to want to please and tend to want to make it right to be ignored and placed in silence is torture at least it is for me.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : brought on by her behavior
zĩѵɑ : yes it is
•bliss• : i dunno.. i dont really think that kind of treatment or even the silent treatment can be worse than what i already do to myself when i've failed.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : from the other side, her behavior is telling Me she does not want My attention
Sciicure smiles and nods
zĩѵɑ : but then i tend to punish my own self far worse, just know i have done something to displease Him enough that cause the punishment
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : oh yeah that personal disappointment is very strong as well
•bliss• : zactly ziva
zĩѵɑ : i know we all are different in our ways, but i personally don’t understand subs that do things on purpose to get punished, i know that is cry for attention from their Dom, but why show a side of yourself that would be even more displeasing, as to showing a pleasing side and knowing that brings more attention than the other, i hope that sounded right
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : oh yes it does ziva
»†«phøéb뻆« : ziva, some subs crave that attention good AND bad, it doesn’t matter how they get it, whether by bratting, or otherwise causing the problem
«heta»♥Atën : It all goes back to communication. If the couple is communicating their wants/needs properly then one wouldn't have to act out to get attention.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ nods
»†«phøéb뻆« : with those types though, i wonder if the ignoring technique would be effective in changing the behavior for the positive
»†«phøéb뻆« : i agree heta the Dom needs to be in tune with the submissives needs as the submissive needs to let the Dom know
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : well phoebe I would not waste the effort on "those kind" ....
»†«phøéb뻆« : nods SW
zĩѵɑ : i guess i dont understand because i dont see myself that way, it literally crushes my soul to know i have displeased.... to do it on purpose ....... i don’t think i ever would or could
»†«phøéb뻆« : i'm the same way ziva, admittedly occasionally i CAN be a brat, but only under the right circumstances
«heta»♥Atën : That makes perfect sense, ziva. And it is how is many are. But, there are many inattentive doms out there, which leads to that sort of behavior.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : ohhh I wish Stealth were here ... He has some thoughts on brats
zĩѵɑ : being a playful brat to me is one thing... but being bratty to obtain attention is another
»†«phøéb뻆« : agreed ziva
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : being clever and witty and charming ... and knowing where the line is and not crossing it can be very alluring and enjoyable
zĩѵɑ : thank You SW Sir, that is what i was trying to say in so many words
»†«phøéb뻆« : nods, that makes total sense SW
freshy : there is a line in the Book of Job (no worries-not bringing the bible into the discussion lol) anywho-the line is.....when God tells Job...."this close and no farther" or, "this far and no farther"
«heta»♥Atën : Good point, freshy
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : Acting like skittles is not ... and I'm sure everyone can think of others they have seen who use the excuse that they are a brat for their unacceptable behavior
zĩѵɑ makes no comment because skittles would be first on my list for that
»†«phøéb뻆« : lol ziva
freshy : i think sometimes it is necessary to exercise the self to the point where it is "too easy" to cross that boundary -and have the peace of mind-the emotional safety of knowing the boundary will be declared and it is not all-an "acting out" or a form of "goading"
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : well as heta mentioned about the communication issue ... so long as that has been done well, clearly etc ..... the boundaries or the line is known and understood … it is she who does not care to "enforce" or live by them
freshy : but not at first, first it has to be crossed
zĩѵɑ : a sub learns her boundaries from her Dom, and its her place to make the right choice about crossing those boundaries, but too, its the Dom’s place to keep those boundaries in check.... i think most subs will push boundaries to see if the Dom cares enough to enforce said boundaries
«heta»♥Atën : i agree, ziva - subs do push boundaries... i've never understood why, but they do
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : and let Me give another perspective on that ziva and you can assume the boundaries have been stated very clearly and understandable if pushing those boundaries occurs ... I look at it as apparently all that effort and discussion is not valued by her
His~fury~ : im just coming into things but i do not push boundaries why waste time
freshy : of course we love the emotionality and soulful mindfulness (psychology) of the lifestyle but we also love the physicality of it-the sexuality, the sensuality but also the pure physical-ness of it boundaries are physical things as much as they are anything else
»†«phøéb뻆« : thats not to say that boundaries and rules might occasionally be broken unintentionally (or intentionally) depending on circumstances for example, having a curfew bedtime might be broken if there is a good reason
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : and surely those things would be taken into account phoebe
•bliss• : well i dunno... people are human.. and even robots malfunction from time to time
zĩѵɑ : i agree completely Sir, if she chose to cross or push the boundaries put forth by her Dom, she isnt giving Him much worth..... to me boundaries are set for a reason... we may not like those reasons sometimes but He has a reason and that should be reason enough for the sub
His~fury~ : my first Master used to say when a new girl presented herself for training that she was given one very important choice- one decision under which all specifics of her service and future relationships would fall to be pleasing and obey - or not … it is a very simple answer - that does not mean easy or unrealized
»†«phøéb뻆« : not only that ziva, but imo, its disrespectful to the Dom for the subbie to continually push those boundaries, its embarrassing
zĩѵɑ : exactually phoebe
His~fury~ : but it is a simple decision we are presented with i believe and al things do fall under that guidline when i make choices regarding my relationship ... i believe the principle of personal responsibility comes into play here too ... a while back SW made a statement about not being interested in 'dragging a girl into submission' - im not quoting exactly apologies Sir
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : close enough
His~fury~ : my first thought was why would He?
zĩѵɑ : i think it all comes down to communication and trust........... if the communication is there between the Dom and sub, there should be no reason for pushing boundaries, you should trust in Him that knows best and respect that
His~fury~ : who's responsibility is my submission? its mine
«heta»♥Atën : agreed, ziva
»†«phøéb뻆« : agreed
«heta»♥Atën : true, fury
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I know I don't always know best it is why the exchange of perspectives is so crucial
His~fury~ : if im fortunate enough to serve i feel it is a Masters responsibility to present me with opportunities to please
«heta»♥Atën : no one always knows best
His~fury~ : to rise to the occasion and its my choices that guide my actions and ... it is my strength, my character, my will that are credited when i do
»†«phøéb뻆« : very well said fury sis
zĩѵɑ : but with communication Sir, You learn from Your sub as she learns from You ........... there she learns her bounderies...she knows what is expected of her
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : but I also learn what I can reasonably expect from her
freshy : i am having difficulty articulating what i am trying to say
Xåvîeŗ : trying to understand the conversation.....are we talking about a sub pushing boundries or a Dom pushing them?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : the submissive doing the pushing
zĩѵɑ : in the process of the relationship, the Dom and sub learn each other, He learns where her weaknesses are and pushes her to learn and become better.......... she learns her Dom and knows the limits He expects from her, pushing those limits is not giving Him much respect
Atën : there are to many variables in this life to expect anyone to be perfect thats why we communicate, and if the sub is pushing boundaries then there is something off and it is up to the Dom to figure it out and correct it
Xåvîeŗ : I agree with you ziva. But, what if the Dom pushes a boundry that He knows that the submissive can not accept....such as lets say, a poly relationship?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ hmmm new topic
freshy : hopefully freshy is not the only one who had this experience (and surely there are Dominants as well as subs who did-and it just has different meaning to everyone)...but there was a moment in childhood when i decided i was running away. i got a suitcase, a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, the few dollars out of my sunday school bread bank (lol) and i walked out. my mom stopped me and inquired about my plan (of escape) and i just told her i was running away. she kissed me and told me to be good and let me
His~fury~ : i think that is a healthy, active part of the symbiotic relationship that can occur in D/s …. Aten Sir well said if i may - of course it is a learning process as no one set of rules can cover every situation
Atën nods to fury
zĩѵɑ : to me... if He knows its a limit she cant not ....accept.... and He keeps pushing that limit........ i see that being hurtful to the relationship, there being hurtful to His sub..... which only causes her harm where she loses the respect and trust in Him
freshy : i cried all the way up the hill thinking she didn't love me enough to run after me saying "wait darling...don't run away. i love you!" and all that eventually-i had to accept that it was best to go home before it got dark lol and i thought the whole way home about what to do when i got there. lol.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : well freshy I'd say that it is your choice, or any other adult's choice to act like a child and in that case you suffer the consequences you create if it is a misperception about how loved or even lovable you are it is a self created prison
freshy : i was a child Sir
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I thought you were using it as an analogy for a grown up submissive's behavior ... sorry
Xåvîeŗ : oh, very well said ziva!! Therefore, not only the respect and trust of the Dom may be lost, the Dom may lose the sub also. Do you agree?
zĩѵɑ : yes Xavier Sir i would agree
«heta»♥Atën : To answer Xavier's question - If He knows she can't accept it and it's a hard limit... then the relationship is over if He continues to push it, imo
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : absolutely 100% agree heta
His~fury~ : yes heta i agree that is not a healthy situation to begin with
Xåvîeŗ : What kind of Dom would do that to His sub though? Especially if the submissive did not know it would end up as a poly relationship?
freshy : the thing is...people scaffod learning experiences as part of growing up. there is something baser about our thought processes that comes into play sometimes-and it is not at all deliberate..it just is what it is. i think the story comes to mind now because i'm relating it to what "i" need sometimes and maybe not even know i need it.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : We all carry baggage of early experiences with us .... we have a responsibility as adults to not let them disrupt the lives we want which means developing the life skills to live a productive and self enhancing life
freshy didn't make the point i tried to make lol shoote
•bliss• : you know what i love best about alternative lifestyles?
«heta»♥Atën : We live it how we want and there is no right or wrong, bliss?
•bliss• : it's all designed for grown ups who are of age and with knowledge comes decision to consent and yeah pretty much what you said heta
zĩѵɑ : Xavier Sir, that is something that should have been discussed in the beginning.... the possibiliy of that happening....
Xåvîeŗ : exactly ziva, I am glad others can see that
Sciicure : Or for that matter what type of Dom would lie about being married to his submissive?
zĩѵɑ : or vice versa Sciicure Sir
Xåvîeŗ : I agree Sciicure, another reason to lose a submissive. I have experience with that. We all make mistakes, big ones at times. Some just don't learn from those mistakes
«heta»♥Atën : And for the Dom that put His submissive into a poly relationship without prior discussion doesn't seem to be much of a Dom to me
zĩѵɑ : right on heta
Xåvîeŗ : oh, I must agree with that there, heta. Very well said!!!!
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : ohh he could be dominant for sure .... just a totally irresponsible jerk and one to shun and avoid
«heta»♥Atën : No room for irresponsibility in a dominant position. *chuckles*
His~fury~ : and again personal responsibilities and reasonable choices contribute to productive and happy relationships
Xåvîeŗ : Everyone have a good evening! Very good discussion! Food for thought for some!
zĩѵɑ : i think that can open door for other possibilites as well........ if He makes it clear in the beginning that He wants a poly relationship and the sub is aware of that, and when it happens she cant accept it due to jealously or other reasons....then is ot the fault of the Dom
«heta»♥Atën ponders "food for thought for some!"
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : do I detect something ? lol
«heta»♥Atën : Well, it sort of seemed like a stab at someone.
Sciicure backspaces
«heta»♥Atën : Good discussion at any rate.
Sciicure : Xavier is navy's former master … he has boundary issues … and a wife
«heta»♥Atën : Ahhhhhh Thank You I knew it was directed at someone just didn't know who
Sciicure : heta its ALWAYS me
zĩѵɑ : oooooo well that does explain the question
«heta»♥Atën nods to Sciicure with a smile … yes, the poly question. *chuckles* This all goes back to respecting boundaries … Now we've came full circle on this discussion
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : smiles ... very good
zĩѵɑ : a very good discussion still
«heta»♥Atën : agreed.
Atën : yes indeed, good discussion
Sciicure : and a illustration of agendas
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : it seemed he had an agenda because he asked for clarification which I gave then went in a total opposite direction ... which I noted
«heta»♥Atën nods
Atën : He seemed to follow what he wanted to
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : yup
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