StealthSpanker™ : ohh freshy a topic plz ?
freshy : i read something at the BEST slave training site that said, If a slave is the property of her Master, then as property she has a value. This value its determined by her service to her Master. (i know the M/s and D/s dynamics are a little different and there could be conversation about whether or not a sub or slave is "property")
freshy : but for me the statement was a catalyst for thinking about the "sense of belonging" in a relationship (from the submissive perspective...but i do wonder about that for the Dominants as well)
freshy : so i looked up the etymology of the word belong
freshy : and therein was "to become the property of" or "to keep hold of" (and so,,,,smiles...to be held by)
freshy : i wanted to bring into the discussion a theory by one of my favorite Humanistic thinkers who said a person must be loved appreciatively in order to grow completely into their full self. it can't happen in possessive love.
freshy : may i offer that as the topic?
StealthSpanker™ : you may freshy
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : Is this the topic freshy ......a person must be loved appreciatively in order to grow completely into their full self. it can't happen in possessive love
freshy : i think so Sir though i'm not asserting that-just putting it out there.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : understood, just clarifying
StealthSpanker™ : freshy has opened the door to a discussion lets A/all enter …. I have always felt a relationship lasts as long as both want it too …. I would never keep someone who didn’t want to stay
amira?slutletteVV : i feel a slave/sub can be property in the sence that they belong to thier Owner in every way possible a good Owner will inflict these feeling and set fire to the slaves/subs sence of belonging with that in mind an Owner being possesive can be a wonderful thing on the other hand too much can be suffocating
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : First I will acknowledge that there are many who would say that love interferes with the “TRUE” Master/slave relationship .... I understand the perspective ... I just do not want to get bogged down or off on tangents
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : Secondly, I like how you work freshy .... if you looked up the word own you will find similar definitions that bypass the singular argument that owning is not only defined in a legal perspective
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I do agree that appreciating and loving freely, unconditionally is a key ingredient to personal growth
freshy : love without ifs … there's so much security in that. it would seem that Dominants need love like that too.
ziva : i agree SW Sir, but if one becomes to possessive in their love, doesn’t that hinder all that growth, preventing self growth and happiness within one self ?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I know that the sense of possession, being owned, belonging are real .... can be episodic …. yes ziva .... I find it awkward and stunting to be possessive
ziva : one becomes smothered preventing self growth, therefore unable to give freely the joys unconditional love
freshy : maybe the topic is about empathy somehow
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I'd say any relationship ... to be healthy and mutually self enhancing needs to have the appreciation, the loving … it is why I think it is important folks determine and know how to have a healthy relationship before even considering flavoring it with D/s
StealthSpanker™ : that is well said Shifting I think it’s how ppl relate to one another in the LS … there is not a right or wrong answer because of differences in ppl
»†«phøéb뻆«: that makes sense SW Sir because if you cannot be friends offline or friends before lovers then it defeats the purpose of love and becomes lust instead
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : to get back to something Aten mentioned yes I do believe that appreciation goes hand in hand with the sense of possession and I don't know a better way to obtain the sense of possession than with actualizing appreciation, caring, and concern without conditions
freshy oh...smiles! appreciation goes hand in hand with the sense of possession. listens
freshy : ziva-i think i got to empathy via what you said-because being empathetic means putting one's self in the other's shoes-without judgment-or intention to manipulate what's there but maybe in possessive love the focus is on one (for both) not something reciprocal. in a way this kind of perspective-taking is difficult for folks in a M/s or D/s relationship because they're each other's opposites?
freshy : i looked up possess. it means to hold, to occupy, to reside in.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I think empathy and appreciation can be synonymous
freshy : i like that Sir. empathy and appreciation-synonymous
freshy : so if a slave (again, not the sub/slave debate topic) is valuable if she serves well and is devoted (emphasis at the moment on devoted), a valuable Master/Mistress is empathetic?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I'd say so ... now that does not mean that I will appease or take on her issues and that goes back to what Stealth said earlier .... I can be empathetic but by being that also realize that the relationship is not healthy or mutually productive
»†«phøéb뻆«: i don’t think i agree completely with that except in a training relationship if the relationship is strictly that of trainer/submissive
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : listening for the difference
»†«phøéb뻆«: yes you need to be in tune with your trainee, but it is a different platform than if you are married to the person and are 24/7 D/s M/s
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : different in what way?
Attitude31 : you need empathy in any relationship.. the only alternative being complete apathy..
Alchum : and if there is apathy in a relationship...it really isn't much of a relationship
Atën : I see it as if there is appreciation there is value and empathy is sure to be there one just cannot let it hinder the relationship
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I totally agree Aten …. My point is that having empathy and appreciation does not always mean that either her or I will appease or take on the other's issues
Alchum : I can agree with that, Wind.
StealthSpanker™ : I treat sub/slaves with 4 words compassion respect kindness and dignity until I am taken advantage of
torin~?~ : i am curious how empathy would hinder a relationship?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : when empathy means taking on the other person's issue with the result of losing Myself, diminishing Myself
torin~?~ : but empathy is simply the ability to understand another’s feelings, motives, etc, Sir......i dont understand how that would hinder, or result in one losing Himself
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : when empathy is actualized by enabling
freshy : sometimes (i don't know-but i'm imagining other submissives have this thought now and then too) it is good to have guidance/correction that comes without affect (the kind of affect that assigns heavy, intense emotionality). i'm not sure that came out the way i meant it but i don't know how else to say that.
Alchum : that makes sense, freshy… a corrective word in passing rather than the whole sturm und drang.
torin~?~ : i know what you mean freshy was well said
freshy : if Stealth corrects freshy for curling up instead of getting up-the message "you failed"-is just accurate feedback and natural consequences not an evaluative (emphasis on value) statement of "you suck freshy and you failed". just like "I am disappointed" doesn't mean "He hate me" -instead of "He believes i can succeed so that's His expectation. see?
StealthSpanker™ : that’s right freshy I know you can succeed I like positive reinforcement
ziva : i agree with you there to freshy
Alchum : To use your emphasis, you feel *de*valued in the latter case …. or in other words, letting "you missed a spot" not become "YOU. MISSED. A. SPOT."
freshy : so like-You mean-when empathy becomes a kind of identifying with the issues, ShiftingWind?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : not just identifying or understanding or even accepting ... but when there is an expectation that I will take on whatever the problem is .... or in some way let it diminish Me …. or if I am seen as not being empathetic because I maintain a boundary in terms of solving that which I am empathetic about … rather than getting “Ohh that's OK” ..... you are still held accountable but not demeaned
freshy : see for a submissive "knowing" "He won't let my issues diminish Him" is a safe feeling
«heta»♥Atën: agrees with freshy.
Alchum : you want to know that He's still going to be there. Security …. and he's going to help you improve.
freshy : yes Alchum.
Alchum : nods with a grin at freshy.
freshy : yes Sir, ShiftingWind …. i like "Ohh that's OK" though
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : you also like "yeah but!" I bet
StealthSpanker™ : How many times have I heard “yes but”
StealthSpanker™ : I just want a sub/slave to be better in her actions and I try and use positive reinforcement
Alchum : well, the girl will improve. she should want to. Of course, the dom should improve too. Neither are gods.
freshy : wai-wai-wait! not gods?
Alchum : And neither are the same person that stepped out their respective doors this morning …. evolution of the relationship, freshy
freshy : that's the thing about variables though Stealth Sir there are just soooo many of 'em
StealthSpanker™ : I dont like to hear yes but at all
Alchum : and we can't account for them all, freshy…. anything from "my hose had a run" to "the office exploded"...
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I think it gets back to part of your quote ziva ,,,, “cherish the little girl”
freshy listens
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : appreciate her, care for her, empathize with her ... but by all means help her grow
Alchum : totally with you, SW.
ziva : exactually Sir, i agree fully …. loves the way You put that
StealthSpanker™ : good discussion
Atën : I agree good topic
ziva : very good topic freshy
«heta»♥Atën: yes, excellent topic.
freshy : thank you i really appreciate being allowed to put a hodgepodge of thoughts on the table and make sense of them together
Alchum : If she has agreed to be with me, she deserves the appreciation, the empathy...and she believes you have the hand that can guide her as she needs, provide it and if you give that of yourself, she should give of herself as freely and at that intersection point - different for every pair - is where the two are in concert.
freshy : please excuse me for the night?
Alchum : I think you've earned your respite freshy
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