jalina~S~Bazi : well usually today,, is girls quiet day and she would have been home pottering about doing things,, but she only really got Home a couple of hours ago thus she hasnt been around today …. was it busy here today?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : lottsa people in here but quiet
jalina~S~Bazi : that amazes this one how that can happen
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : Sunday blahs ….low energy ... straddling other rooms or doing other things ... distractions
jalina~S~Bazi : hmmm two rooming.... that is one thing this one has never done … being in two rooms at once that is
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I think folks wander about looking for something ... friends they know etc … will straddle 2 or 3 rooms with hopes something will happen
jalina~S~Bazi : perhaps SW … though this one finds that she can only really give her attetnion properly to one room at a time
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : nods I've never been much of a roamer or straddler
jalina~S~Bazi : girl will sometimes look at another server whilst she is in a room, but she wont enter any rooms,, and if she does decide to,, she leaves the one she is in and there are only a few places this one will actually visit
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : nods lottsa folks also in IM or whisper or even on things like Skype
jalina~S~Bazi : true SW
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : there is a new discussion from yesterday posted in the Blogger by the way
jalina~S~Bazi : oh.. good,, this one will have a read of it but later on … she tends to do most of her reading in the eveing
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : nothing really new ... some new girl asking about punishment
♥♥s♥♥ : nods, sneak in when room is empty and look to see if anything is posted
jalina~S~Bazi ~smiles~ that is probably the last subject this one would raise
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : what subjects would you raise jalina?
jalina~S~Bazi : well hmmm................... probably ones about etiquette,, would interest this one, so as not to offend Anyone … that would be a good starting point SW …. this is very much a whole new ball game for girl, Gor she understood,,, but D/s M/s she is slowly learning about
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : nods trouble is that in Gor everything is laid out in pretty universal terms, in D/s it is not the issue of individual choice and preferences is far more ummmm ... allowed, counted on
jalina~S~Bazi : oh ok,, girl didnt know that she thought it would also be universal
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : no not at all
♥♥s♥♥ : might be dumb question but was curious what find to be largest differences in the two jalina? often hear D/s discuss it but not from Gor point of view
jalina~S~Bazi : so if this one visited another D/s Home it could be completely different ? but....... would her actions be understood or could they be seen as being offensive if she was to do something wrong?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : oh some places yes your entrance would be scoffed at
jalina~S~Bazi : oh to scoff is not being very welcoming.... hopefully girl wont run into too many like that.
Soloman : likes a girl that asks entrance.....but not a requirement for Him
jalina~S~Bazi : ~s~,,, girl can only answer from her own perspective but she finds the largest difference is in the freedom a girl has she might be wrong in saying this,, but that is what she sees at this stage.
♥♥s♥♥ : some people are rude in her opinion...and refuse to accept anything different from their norm. …. was a time jalina that i would go to visit friends in a Gor room and met it as well...was actually told by One that i was "to tall to be slave" and kicked from the room lol
jalina~S~Bazi : how rude s
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : the issue of individual freedom is a key point in D/s jalina ... the tenet of "mutual consent"
jalina~S~Bazi : but where does the freedom and one being Mastered balance out,,, or become unbalanced? if a girl gets everything she wants.. what is the point of submitting?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : hmm a little confused by the question but let Me take a stab …. as you have pointed out in the past about yourself ... you were not an "instant slave" .... it took time and was a long process for you to reach that point ... correct?
jalina~S~Bazi : aye SW in learning what was right and wrong. acceptable and not acceptable …. took girl about 5 months to learn
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : and even in the books ... although a girl is considered to be and treated as if she is a slave .......it does not occur instantly, it takes most characters time to come to the point of acceptance …. the same occurs in D/s
jalina~S~Bazi : aye SW … but a slave, doesn’t get to discuss her wants ... she is told what is going to happen and thats it.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : right ... but that is Gor, how realistic that could be is questionable .....
jalina~S~Bazi : aye SW,, it might not be realistic in rl,, but it certainly has its effect ol which affect rl …
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : and I'd say the same about D/s on line as well as off line
jalina~S~Bazi : so a head strong girl,, wont get her way all the time she will be drawn in slowly?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : well this is where I am confused by your view of "getting what she wants"
jalina~S~Bazi : if a girl puts her all into it ,,, herself.
jalina~S~Bazi : girl will attempt to explain it further SW …. by getting everything she wants.. would include..... ok, a girl is given choices,, more freedom, she chooses not to do say,,, dress in a particular manner, or she doesn’t like a particular Master and ignores Him or refuses to serve Him,,, how does this fit in with being under the hand of a Master who is directing her if she can just say no? and if her no has no offline consequences
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : ok once again, in D/s, the belief in "mutual consent" is a cornerstone .... therefore, even if one does have a Master/Mistress, he or she is obliged only to obey that one no other dominant is seen as his or her owner/Master/Mistress whereas in Gor all FM and FW are
jalina~S~Bazi : thats a huge difference …. that is what seperates Gor from d/s
♥♥s♥♥ : speaking for myself, would not be a option of just saying no...could discuss with Him her reasons for feeling as she does , and hope they are taken into consideration but in the end would do as He said
jalina~S~Bazi : that is what this one struggles with the most she knows she is restricted .. ect,,, and can back away from those pressures,, but most other things she has to obey regardless of who is giving the order
Soloman9358 : will always listen to reason .....if good will allow ......but with the girl always knowing I will make the decision
jalina~S~Bazi : to think a girl can just say no.. and not be punished,, is a new concept
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : now on line it would be impractical to expect that ... off line, however, you would find in private groups something much more akin to what you are familiar with
Soloman9358 : yes real is completely different for sure
jalina~S~Bazi : so really a girls freedom comes down to putting forth a proposition to her Owner and if He/She agrees,, then the girl gets it
jalina~S~Bazi : and if not,, then she has to obey
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : yes ... it would be considered but the final decision would be turned over to the Master/Mistress
Soloman9358 : not necesssarily but close jalina smiling yes the Master/Mistress makes the FINAL
♪apache°rose°paon♪ : she obeys in both cases
jalina~S~Bazi : so she really doesnt have a choice she really only has the ability to give her own thoughts into the matter,,, and wait for His/Her response
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : yes she does ... she can leave the relationship
jalina~S~Bazi : true SW girl is speaking about a working relationship SW,, one that is ongoing
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I am too lol
jalina~S~Bazi : one that is not pushed to the limits,, which girl would understand about walking out on
Soloman9358 : smiles some things My tender does not agree to but if pressed I do think she would submit but I would never push her to that limit
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : Hearing "no" too often does not endear a submissive/slave to the dominant
jalina~S~Bazi ~smiles softly~ girl understands that one
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : here is where it sounds tricky but really is not ... if two people ... a dominant and submissive have discussed thoroughly the expectations, limits, and preferences of the relationship .... and have mutually accepted them then what may seem like limits to outsiders are really insignificant and irrelevant ... there are no limits within their relationship and this is one of those "measuring sticks" both in Gor and D/s used to determine a "true" Master/slave relationship
jalina~S~Bazi : so a good Dominant wouldnt just change the rules and make things suddenly tougher without discussing them
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : not if he or she wants to have a healthy mutually productive relationship
Soloman9358 : what rules jalina??
jalina~S~Bazi : rules like,,, who she can talk to, or suddenly she cant visit anywhere anymore,
jalina~S~Bazi : or who she has to befriend
jalina~S~Bazi : things like that Master Soloman
jalina~S~Bazi : and that would even extend to changing the sexual expectations of the girl,,
Soloman9358 : if I was to restrict her from anyone ..... it would be for her protection .... never for personal reasons that I just did not like the person
♥♥s♥♥ : He has that right but i would hope that if suddenly came to me and said did not wish me to talk with One i had been, would explain why and give me chance to understand, and perhaps explain as well why the choice might not be needed
Soloman9358 : yes tasty that is what I wanted to say......................is just too tongue tied to get it out right as far …. as sexual goes she will learn as Wwe go thru the relationship
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : nods the one thing a Master. whether Gor or D/s does not want to do is have a submissive or slave fail so care is taken to make sure she knows what she is to do, how to do it
Soloman9358 : never SW would make Me look foolish … in real life would be very bad
jalina~S~Bazi : then it is very similar except a girl is perhaps explained to more.rather than just being told
Soloman9358 : yes has more options but still comes down to doing as told because she wants to please her Master
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : it really is jalina ... and the reason is that John Norman drew upon information from existing D/s individuals, groups and practices .... just as he borrowed heavily from ancient Rome, Greece, and Edgar Rice Borroughs' Tarzan
jalina~S~Bazi : but the committment of a sub is the same as a slave?
Soloman9358 : depends how you describe a slave ........many have different ideas of that
♪apache°rose°paon♪ : oh was this a sub/slave discussion ?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : once again jalina ... that commitment question is a loaded one lol
jalina~S~Bazi : aye SW... she thought about that after she typed it …. there seems to be a real.. hmm divition between slaves and subs and that is possibly on the slaves side in general girl is speaking ….. not that this one is biased but from past discussions she has listened to with other slave girls
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I will say this ..... so long as she and I have mutually agreed upon our relationship and what will or will not be included ...... her commitment is no less than anyone else's ... just because they happen to identify as being a slave rather than submissive …. what our relationship is about, how it has come to be, what it includes or does not include is no one else's business
jalina~S~Bazi : true SW girl does apologise,, but its going to take her a little while to really understand all this
♥♥s♥♥ : was with One who had been Gor, and had only had "slaves" i had always thought of myself as "sub" if had to give a title, there were adjustments to be made on both sides
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : from the outside others might question it based on their perspective's and experiences ...... which mean nothing to Me all that matters to Me is My relationship to the one who serves Me
jalina~S~Bazi : true SW whereas in Gor,, everyone seems to get involved,,, that is the one Huge downside of it
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : well folks in D/s do the same thing too lol … lottsa self proclaimed experts who like to stick their noses in where they don't belong
jalina~S~Bazi : oh no..... well at least this one is experienced in ducking when those sorts of accusations happen
Soloman : I was in the life before anyone really knew about "lifestyle" smiles
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I have known rose for years now ...... I would never even entertain ridiculous debates over whether she is submissive or slave to her Master …. What I would say is that she is slave to her Master and submissive to all the rest
jalina~S~Bazi : hmm thats a good description SW …. this one really hopes she hasnt offended Anyone,, she is merely speaking out her thoughts and trying to put them into persepective
Soloman : nope girl you need to ask to learn
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I don't think you have at all .... this is a very good discussion with a number of very relevant points made and examples given by A/all
jalina~S~Bazi : and yes Master Soloman,, this one tends to ponder on things for a while and then ask later
♪apache°rose°paon♪ : indeed to Maitre i am slave, to *all* the rest i'm not sure what i am
♥♥s♥♥ : do not understand why any would be offended over an open discussion. am glad i was here for it jalina ...answered some questions for me as well
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : let Me ... without offending you or your Master use the same example jalina …. you are commanded by your Master to serve anyone in all ways except when it comes to "furring" ... correct?
jalina~S~Bazi : aye SW if she is asked
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : to Me then, I can make the same claim with you as I have about rose ... you are not a slave to A/all based simply on that restriction … there is just too much weight put on the two terms .. submissive vs slave .... and some blind and skewed beliefs in how they are different …. you identify as slave ... I find it just as endearing and acceptable as someone who identifies as submissive
jalina~S~Bazi : it is perhaps how this one has been taught right from the beginning,, but she is trying to understand clearly and openly, its the level of committment within each girl that counts
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I do not disagree with that jalina ... however ... where that becomes problematic is when amateur night idiots will go around making comments like ... Gorean slaves are more than submissives because of their level of commitment and I am not including you in that comment lol
jalina~S~Bazi : girl has heard comments like that before SW but has not joined in with them … she has sat back and stayed out of it
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : it is like the whole controversy that goes on over silk colors and which color makes one "more than"
jalina~S~Bazi : lol..... thats why this one wears no silks never has since the day she submitted
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I'll try to dig out a response I wrote to an alleged Gorean Master who posted such comments once
jalina~S~Bazi : oh,, yes that would be most interesting SW …. this has been an interesting discussion, ,,, and this one is slowly seeing the gap vanish … the gap in her understanding that is
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : ahhhh good!
Soloman : it is only a matter of perception I think jalina
jalina~S~Bazi : aye Master Soloman
Soloman : I was real life for a long time .... will never be again
jalina~S~Bazi : why not Master Soloman if girl might ask?
Soloman : I will never collar again .....that too is only a perception on My part
jalina~S~Bazi : and what are Your reasons for that Master Soloman again if girl might ask?
Soloman : noooooooooooooo My wife died she was Mine for 43 years
jalina~S~Bazi : ahhhh,, girl understands Master Soloman,,, and is sorry for Your loss
Soloman : and I have had two online subs but both knew going in the only collar they would wear would be the one tieing them to Me around their heart …. smiles it is fine and lots do not agree with Me but I do what I do
jalina~S~Bazi : and really Master Soloman, that is the only collar that holds a girl
Soloman : nods
♥♥s♥♥ : smiles, knowing the girl as i do Soloman...would not matter if the collar was around her neck or not, she could not be more Yours
jalina~S~Bazi : well,,,, a girl might stay with a Master due to.. being.. stubborn about tradition and that is in Gor
Soloman : lol smiles
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I understand all too well Soloman
jalina~S~Bazi : its actually a very intricate relationship,, and can be seen in so many different lights this girl used to believe that the wearing of a collar was a significant show of Ownership and committment,, but understands that to be different now
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : how so jalina?
jalina~S~Bazi : well, if a Master slaps a collar on a girl,,,, or a girl accepts a collar without trueness in her heart,, that collar is then merely a piece of leather,, or a decorative strap meaning nothing more than a hair band.
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : ahhh indeed
Soloman : smiles very good girl
Soloman : a collar does not make a submissive
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ nods and smiles
♪apache°rose°paon♪ : i guess Yyall are talking about online collars ?
jalina~S~Bazi : to this girl,, online and offline are the same rose,, in the level of commitment... well,,, to this girl anyhow it is... even though she knows that offline can dominate sometimes
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : and I would agree and support you in that jalina
Soloman : I still have the collar My wife wore will take it to My grave with Me Rose
♪apache°rose°paon♪ : i can understand that Soloman !
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : I also have My girl's collar hanging in a small box right here in front of Me Soloman
Soloman : smiles good SW
jalina~S~Bazi : the past few weeks have been a huge learning curve for this one …. she has contemplated much,, and also just thought about the two different cultures and girl believes it comes down to I/individuals and not the cultures …. by Cultures she means...... Gor vs D/s
Soloman : yes I agree
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : and knowledge jalina ... and experience
jalina~S~Bazi : oh yes,,,, experience can so greatly influence one and knowledge enlightens them
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : as you have pointed out ... you started with Gor ... learned what you know from Gor ..... there is bound to be that "gap" as you say .... unlike others, you attempt to learn more and see more
jalina~S~Bazi : actually girl didnt start with Gor she started in a strange home but if she had to label it , it was Ms …. but heavily influenced by Gor ,, in a strange way, from there she went to Gor as a FW
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : ok
jalina~S~Bazi : and then learnt the more intricate rules... serving.. speaking to the Free ect,.... but neither had the sort of freedom that this Home has in the ability to talk / discuss things. openly
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ nods
♥♥s♥♥ : lessons were taught more then in the room? as opposed to reading, talking with others as are here?
jalina~S~Bazi : this one did written assigments,,, and then would have to show what she learnt …. she was never taught in a room
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : nods rooms like that were far more possible back when there were more folks around
jalina~S~Bazi : aye, girl knows this one went through all three levels of training as a bondmaid,, and never once got feedback … lol.. she had no idea if she was doing things properly
Soloman : yes less rooms and more people back then
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : there are so many ummm ... different "cultures" as you say with D/s .... heta located some articles from an old site that no longer exists .... a place where many learned their D/s .... the trouble is, the person who wrote the articles wrote from her perspective and the culture of D/s she was part of … it does not all translate to folks from other back grounds
jalina~S~Bazi : from what girl has picked up,,, and this one is saying this in a general statement,, but in D/s,,, a Master shapes His girl to Himself and doesnt have to worry about a million different rules of protocol to suit everyone
Soloman : smiles
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : nope ... only if He and she belong to a group .. and I am speaking off line
jalina~S~Bazi ~laughs... ~ groups is something she also has no idea aobut,, but that can be left for another day another discussion that is ~smiles softly~ there is a whole new world opening up to this one so much to learn
jalina~S~Bazi : pity it doesnt have audio,, it would be easier..
♪apache°rose°paon♪ : so glad this is not audio ! it would be much more difficult for me to understand
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : ahhhhhhh well good
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : so this is interesting to you rose?
♪apache°rose°paon♪ : oui ShiftingWind
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : it's nice when the discussion is with a small group ... much easier to follow, to respond, to clarify things
jalina~S~Bazi : as usual, her time spent here in Ducati has led to her thinking... its nice not to sit with an idle mind
♥♥s♥♥ : you have answered some questions and given her things to think about as well jalina ..thank you
jalina~S~Bazi : oh... thank you s... girl just assumes everyone knows more than she does here
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : yes indeed jalina ... it helps to review things in one's mind ... and thank you Soloman for sharing Your personal perspectives and experiences
jalina~S~Bazi : unfortunaely its time that this one headed off … may she please?
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : yes jalina you may
jalina~S~Bazi : thank You SW,, and enjoy the rest of Your evening
♥♥s♥♥ : enjoy your day jalina
♪apache°rose°paon♪ likes to see jalina discussing and asking questions
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : yes she is very inquisitive and sincere raises lots of things not often discussed
♪apache°rose°paon♪ : it always has been difficult for me to get along with Gorean people
ﺼﺸ§hìftìñgWìñdﻌﻀ : well it is like she says ... a gap that can be minimized ... with productive discussion
♪apache°rose°paon♪ : oui ShiftingWind, i think Goreans are generally not open to discussion, but she is … can't help thinking one day jalina will realize there is a life outside of Gor
Soloman : knows very little about Gor ,,,,,,,,but I do like the dances
♪apache°rose°paon♪ doesn't need to be Gorean for dancing héhé
Soloman : true rose smiles
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